The Machines Stopped Being Predictable

A Fourth Degree Black Belt Walks In

Richard: Good morning. This is Richard Lowe and this is the Leaders and Their Stories podcast. I’m here with Noah Landow at Macktez. We’re going to have a fascinating conversation about a little bit about everything today. He was trained as an architect at Yale and spent the next 30 years applying that training to something nobody would expect, keeping other people’s technology from falling over.

Noah Landow followed Maktez in November 1996, which makes it older than Google. That’s interesting. And he is still running it. His team came out of English sculpture, molecular biology, and print production because he hires for how somebody thinks rather than what they already know. Along the way, he’s helped artists estates turn boxes of idiosyncratic paper into archives the world can actually use.

Co-written a book called Tame the Tech Beach. and built a talk series in his East Village office, where he sits down with an archivist one month and a theoretical physicist the next. He’s also a board president at Union Doc’s treasurer at the oldest site on the Victorian era, and he practices Dia Tao? Daitorio. You can pronounce the last part of that.

Noah: Aikijujitsu.

Richard: Okay. Noah, welcome to Leaders and Their Stories.

Noah: Thank you, Richard. Sorry to give you so many tongue twisters in that in that list.

Richard: It’s totally okay. So that kind of jujitsu is that the kind that what’s his name that actor does?

Noah: It is not. This is the style actually for people who are into this kind of thing. There is a very popular modern style called Aikido, which is what that person is famous for. But it’s invented by someone named Ueshiba or Osensei. And Ueshiba was a very senior teacher in this style. which is a very old style that predates World War II and the Meiji Restoration and is a kind of Japanese called koryu, which is sort of like preserved from the old days, old fashioned.

Richard: I see.

Noah: But the person who invented Aikido was a senior teacher in this style.

Richard: And you practice it. Does it have black belts and stuff like that?

Noah: It does. I am fourth degree black belt in that style. We travel to Japan and test with people there. It’s an amazing group of really sophisticated martial artists who’ve been training us for 60, 70 years.

Richard: That’s super impressive. I guess that if somebody was going to sneak up on you, they wouldn’t enjoy the situation.

Noah: I hope I would avoid the situation and diffuse it without conflict, but we’ll see.

Richard: People will be people.

Noah: Indeed.

What AEO Actually Is, and What It Is Not

Richard: So we were just having a fascinating conversation about AEO, and we might as well have that conversation here. I just finished a book called The Day Your Website Died, and it’s about AEO and how to make your website come back to life. And looking at my stats, I can see that my website has been getting less and less traffic.

But now that I’m doing AEO, I’m getting more and more traffic. The interesting thing I’m finding is I’ve been doing it hard, so I wrote a book on it, is the traffic is they’re pre-qualified. They come and they know what they want. They put in the prompt, I want to find a ghostwriter who knows technology. It was right to me.

And I’ve gotten two clients from that so far that I came up in ChatGPT and in Periscope, whatever it’s called. Perplexity. Periscope’s the social media thing. I know.

Noah: Is that still around? I don’t know if it was video. I think that was video.

Richard: Video. I have no idea. I think it’s.

Noah: Mine. Is it? Yes. They all run together at a certain point.

Richard: Historically. Went the way of the dodo. But I remember it. So you were saying some things about it that are interesting. So what are your thoughts?

Noah: So AEO and defining acronyms here, one of my favorite little hobbies, sort of artificial intelligence engine optimization or Gen. AI search optimization or GEO as it’s sometimes called too, all sort of clusters of the same idea. It’s obviously trying to make sure that the material you’re publishing out there on the web is found and cataloged and used in the way that you wanted to by search engines as well as particularly AI search engines, but particularly AI, generative AI tools like ChatGPT, Gemini and Claude and all those things.

It’s A fascinating topic in part, I think, because it’s, and I’m sure your book goes into this in all sorts of detail, it’s changed so much over the last couple of years. And there’s also an entire field, SEO, which is search engine optimization, which has been around for 20 some odd years. And some of the lessons are similar and some of them are different.

And there’s a sort of interesting quality to AEO where when you start trying to get your head around what’s actually happening there, it varies. It varies by engine, it varies by harness, it varies by intent.

And of course, it’s It’s always an interesting element of the cataloging of the data on your website that gets sort of like rolled into something, but also the real-time dynamic presentation of data to make it accessible, what kinds of things people are looking for, which is of course a common thread with a lot of SEO tools of like, are people looking for ghostwriter or are they looking for a, do people not know that term and they’re searching for some other term? and sort of recognizing that like the need to kind of dynamically adjust and grow over time is a key component.

So anyway, super fascinating topic.

Training Crawls Versus Live Queries

Richard: It’s super fascinating. You can really go into the weeds. I did. And you can spend a lot of time just doing all kinds of stuff that seems really fascinating, but probably doesn’t do anything for you. One of the fascinating thing is what you touched on is it’s different for every engine. So Claude’s different than Grok is different than whatever. And they pound your site.

And there’s kinds that they send out crawlers just like Google does. And some of them you don’t want and some of them you do. Like you don’t really need to have the training. That doesn’t get you.

Noah: Any value, whereas the actual live query sites, though, the bots, those are helpful because those are real human beings looking for something.

Richard: The query ones are interesting because they come out in real time. Somebody says, I want to find a ghostwriter who’s a technical. It comes out right then and looks at my site because it knows I have that stuff and verifies it and then comes back. It’s fascinating. But the thing I ran into first, and I’ll let you do some talking on this in a minute, because I’m doing the blah, because I’m excited about my book, is you have to have your canon right.

So if you say, if I say I wrote 54 books, I need to say that everywhere. If I say I wrote 54 books and other places say I wrote 12 books and other places I wrote, 15 because it changed over time.

Noah: Yeah.

Richard: It gets confused and it’ll downgrade you. So that was the first thing. My site has hundreds of pages, actually over 1000 pages. Trying to fix all that was a bloody nightmare. I wrote plugins to go through and find it all. But then there were places where it was spelled out, places where it wasn’t.

A Thousand Pages and the Tools That Fixed Them

Noah: I hate to say this, but that’s probably a job for an AI tool. Claude Cowork or something would probably, as long as your website exists in a place that’s accessible, GitHub or something, we actually interestingly are, we were confronted by a similar set of challenges. The website we have now, we as Mactes, is based in WordPress, has been for a number of years.

We actually, our prior incarnation of the website from about 5, eight years ago was extremely text heavy. And we were like, well, let’s make it a little lighter, a little more visually appealing. We have illustrations on pages. It’s a little less dense. Internally, we had a big discussion over the last six months about how, well, I think we want to have more case studies.

We’re finding quite a bit of inbound traffic from Copilot and other search engines that are specifically obviously tied to case studies we’ve pages that we post. So we posted more and more of those. And that led to a kind of redesign initiative, which is I think probably two or three weeks, maybe a month away from relaunching, which is dramatically larger.

It’s probably 10 times the size in terms of the amount of material. But it adds like a whole glossary. It adds a lot of fundamental educational material about like, hey, do you understand what DKIM is? Do you understand what DMARC is? If not, here’s a page that can explain it.

But that also means that we have all of these things that are cross-connected And obviously Claude Cowork or some sort of shared tool was critical to make that not a wildly overwhelming and daunting process for somebody on our team to do manually. So it’s an interesting thing where the tool created a problem, but also offered an opportunity to solve it.

Richard: I know I use Claude heavily for that, but I had it write plugins. I don’t think Cowork really was very good when I started. I said, create a plugin to fix this particular thing, create a plugin to identify this thing. Claude is really good at creating plugins. It is.

Noah: It’s great at that.

That’s also one of the futures of, I’m sure you’ve encountered this countless times, but speaking to our CTO and IT director people, token utilization is such a big topic of discussion right now in the technology world of like, are you going to get brutally hit by a giant bill in three months because you’ve built all these automations that are very token intensive and once your flat rate plans get sort of decommissioned and replaced with token-based ones, or you suddenly kind of have a $10,000 bill instead of $100 bill.

So one of the classic tools that we’ve been doing, and I’m sure most people are, and you just gave an example of 1, which is to think of things as sort of like scripts and processes. They don’t necessarily require heavy AI automation, they might be classical automation using existing scripts and tools so that you’re, reducing the dependency on heavy token usage. Super interesting design. Anyway, side topic there.

Tokens, Context, and What That Costs

Richard: I ran into that and I paid the $200 a month max plan on Claude and $200 a month buys me a lot of, it’s a million tokens per session. And I use it up several times a day, so I have to switch sessions.

Noah: Yeah.

Richard: But I’m, I’ve paid only hit the top of the plan a couple times. And that’s good. But I ran into the token things a few times on various products, and I got around it by not doing that. I’m just a single ghost rider. I don’t need to have big build on tokens. Right now, my main token is storage on R2 on Cloudflare.

And the cloud for a rule set, I expanded to pro, that’s only 25 bucks a month per zone. So those rules are cool. I basically took Wordsense and put it in CloudFlare. And now I don’t need Wordsense anymore.

Noah: I feel like it’s really interesting to me how those tools have evolved. We started using Vercel for something recently, and I was like, oh, wow, this is all that stuff I was doing by hand. It’s actually just like a button you press now. Truly a fascinating world of services and microservices and Kubernetes and all these sort of tools. systems that kind of interoperate way more exciting than they were 30 years ago, for example.

The Breach That Started It

Richard: What got me into part of this is that my site was breached. And my host sent me an e-mail, said, we stopped the breach. Don’t need to worry. If you don’t clean it up in three days, we’re going to cancel your account. Now, all I needed to do was delete the file. So it was a little scary, but it was minor.

So I deleted it within 5 seconds of getting that e-mail practically. And then I thought, well, how did it get breached? So I did some research and it turned out to be a supply chain breach. Somebody bought a whole set of plugins and there was a big one, a big set. And then they were hackers and they compromised hundreds of thousands of sites.

So it came in through one of my plugins that I said, I don’t think I like that very much.

Noah: Yeah, yeah.

Richard: So I upgraded all my security. I’m a security guy. I was in charge of PCI compliance and stuff like that. So I said, I’m not going to have anybody breach, not if I can help it. So I have little plugins to fix all that and stuff. And one thing that’s really cool with Claude is you can take the source of the plugin, you can say, do a security audit. And it does.

But what you have to remember is you have to go to another session and do it again and then another session and do it again because they’re different.

Non-Deterministic, and Why That Breaks IT People

Noah: It’s non-deterministic. I feel like that’s one of the things that we discuss internally all the time is it’s, if you’re a long time IT person, I think we are all, I’m putting words in your mouth, but I think we’re all used to deterministic tools, which is you run a scan and it produces a result and it’s the same result every time you run it.

That’s how you verify that this thing is working correctly. That’s not how AI works. When you run something with AI, the results you get three different times are different each time, which is such a different mindset when you’re talking about QA and security and accuracy and vetting.

Richard: That’s one of the features and problems with AEO is if I as a user go out there and say, I want to find the best ghostwriter who knows technology, I’ll get Richard Lowe. If I ask again, I’ll get somebody else. If I ask again, I’ll get somebody else. It’s very hard to tell if AEO is working.

Noah: Yeah. Have you experimented with like Peec, I’m not sure, or Tracker or any, there’s a bunch of web speaking of services that claim to do kind of deeper analysis of results. I’m a little suspicious. Ahrefs I think is another one. There’s a bunch out there, but I don’t have any sense of which of them are actually good or bad.

Richard: Yeah, they tend to also be a little pricey for what I’m doing. I’m more basing it on people come to me, how many people come to me and ask me for my services. I have two sites. One’s for book, the books I’ve written and one’s for my services.

Noah: Yeah.

Richard: I separate the two because the, fiction book isn’t really appropriate on the services pay services thing. Different. And some of my fiction books, I don’t write, I write edgy stuff. So it, it should be somewhere else. It’s still under my name. Huh.

Noah: I would like to say that it’s not secrecy, it’s just discretion. You want to allow people to focus on the things that they’re interested in and not get distracted.

Richard: Right, right. And it’s not horribly edgy. it’s not bad and none of it’s political. It’s just stuff that really shouldn’t be on my business site. And those books are all for sale, but I sell through Ingram, not Amazon. And Ingram puts it on Amazon. And I get a much higher commission and I don’t have to put up with Amazon’s.

Noah: Stuff crazy KDP and all that stuff.

Two Sites, and Keeping Fiction Off the Business

Richard: Don’t got any of that and don’t need it don’t want.

Noah: It you have I understand it hundreds thousands you have an enorm your list of books is just incredible huge.

Richard: I’ve written 113 plus I have to put the plus in because it’s growing all the time books and ghost written 54 amazing just finished the 56.

113+ Books and the Writing Ritual

Noah: Do you, not to turn this into an interview of you, but do you have a ritual? Like do you get up in the morning and write for an hour or, and then have a martini or what is your sort of daily writing ritual if you have one?

Richard: I get up in the morning and I do the technical stuff like I was just talking about, because I’m really a techie. So I love this AEO stuff and I get buried in it. So what I do is I do that until breakfast. So I get up early, do that for a couple hours, check my rules, make sure everything’s working.

Then I go to after that is generally my time to write my stuff. And I’m most productive as far as writing for clients in the evenings. So I’ll do the writing of my stuff and fix my website and do all that kind of stuff in the morning, go out and reach out to customers and find new customers and prospect and all that kind of stuff, which is really draining for me. I’m ADHD introvert, severe ADHD introvert, permit practically.

And that’s one reason why I’m doing this podcast is it forces me literally to go out there and talk to people. But in the evening, man, that writing news comes by and I’m just busy writing for the clients.

Noah: Get in the flow.

Richard: Spit out, two, three, 4, 5,000 words in six hours kind of thing.

Noah: Wow.

Richard: Then of course, I’ve run it through a spell checker because voice dictation.

Noah: I have to say my spelling has, I definitely make more typos now than I did when I was younger. Maybe my hand-eye coordination is worse or my typing is worse, but goodness golly, do I make a lot of typos now.

Richard: Well, especially with the voice dictation and I’m looking for something other than Word because Word’s voice dictation is very lacking. There’s got to be somebody out there who’s done one better. I was not impressed with ProWriting 8 or Grammarly’s version because they’re heavy. The very big performance hogs. I just want something simple.

Noah: Yeah. I wonder if Whisper would work for you. That’s AI based, so perhaps short-lived and it’s when it hits token usage, but it is a sort of continuous transcription service that I find that to be super interesting. One of the, not to take us off on a tangent here, but one of our TEDA techs, so the in-person event series we have in our office, which I think you doing these interviews and me doing the TEDA techs in our office come from an extremely similar place.

I really enjoy meeting new people and having really interesting conversations. And those TEDA techs are, we happen to have a really cool office that’s in the East Village, right near Tompkins Square Park and Union Square. And Most of our team is hybrid, so we weren’t really physically getting together all that often. And it’s a great office that has a really nice setup in the front that’s comfortable for about 25 people.

And I had a number of people who I would joke that I really wanted to trap them in a corner at a cocktail party and harangue them with questions for 45 minutes And so half seriously was like, what if I just actually did that? Could I just sit you down and then ask questions that I think other people will find interesting?

And so we started doing that about three years ago now. And so we do that roughly every other month. And as you mentioned, the topics are all over the place. The next one we have is on archives and dyslexia with Robert Rauschenberg’s archivist. The last one was 3D printing and material technology with head of MakerBot and Ultimaker.

A prior one was on the sort of funding of high security sort of encryption tools by the State Department, recently no longer covered by secrecy rules. So a whole bunch of great stories there. And one was on American Chestnut Tree, one was on resilience. one was on consciousness and AI with a quantum PhD researcher talking about his understanding of what’s actually really happening.

So anyway, they tend to be very varied, but all of them are really an opportunity to just get together in person and really connect with somebody and get out of your head and get out of your computer work into a human being interaction.

Enemies of You and the Death of Thinking

Richard: Nice. Well, the series I finished recently is called Enemies of You. And it’s eight books so far. And it’s one of them is The Death of Thinking. And it’s about how AI, if you go at it the wrong way and let it do your thinking for you, will become stupid, which is what’s happening to a lot of people.

And then it’s got a companion volume called augmented human, which is how you use it correctly, which I feel I’m doing. I’m using it as a virtual assistant, basically, which is the way to do it. Use it as an assistant, help you out. Just like you would pass graphics off to somebody to do some graphics. I don’t know. I’m not a graphics person.

I don’t know how to write a plugin, but Wad does. I know how to design one. Yeah. And that’s what I would do when I was at Trader Joe’s is I would design programs and systems, and then I’d hand them to people. I’d hire people to do it. And then there’s other books. One of them is The Inshitification of America, which is about private equity.

Noah: Yeah, Cory Doctorow has an amazing coiner of that term. Truly intense. It’s a great term.

Richard: It’s a great term, and it actually turned out to be a pretty good book. It was scary what they’ve done. It’s one of the reasons why our military is having little problems now, because they all of the well, we don’t need to get into it. It’s your it’s I’m interviewing you.

Digital Employees Versus Human Ones

Noah: But yeah, there’s a there’s a whole topic which we could get into of how to think about, obviously I’m a tech CEO. I run a firm of 20 amazing human beings. And one of the things that we talk about a lot is kind of what role AI tools and AI kind of technologies play in the work we’re doing now and the work that’s coming.

Obviously, we’re uniquely well positioned to not only think and talk about these tools, but actually implement them. And it’s been very interesting and kind of fascinating to see where the real production uses are as individuals, as organizations, as teams, as systems, versus sort of like the, there’s obviously an enormous amount of hype and an enormous amount of discussion in the media about tools, but that’s often a bit disconnected from the actual things people are using it for.

And of course, there’s all these sort of various eras of AI. There’s sort of the chat era of like talking to this thing like it’s your personal assistant. And then there’s sort of like the agentic sides. And then there’s building MCPs to create custom stuff. And there’s using code to build code that then runs. There’s a lot of different layers there.

And it’s been a fascinating discussion for us. in part because we’re trying to think about not only how this works for us, but how this works at 100 different clients that we work for. And our clients vary widely at Mactes from organizations like Robert Rauschenberg’s estate to Little Island to MakerBot. So these organizations, some of which are nonprofits, some of which are extremely kind of value-driven organizations, many of them the technology is not something that is like part of the kind of the reason for being.

The technology is often sort of an obstacle that they have to navigate. So anyway, AI is such a fascinating landscape in that in terms of how it fits into people’s ambitions. And I like to joke slash say that in my experience, the most important competency right now for using AI is knowing how to manage people.

If you bring the methodologies and you’re good at managing people, then managing different AI functionality is much easier. Not thinking of it as a deterministic device, but thinking of it as like a human, like a little more variable. You need to figure out how you gauge success and you need to figure out how you can evaluate success without actually redoing the entire thing.

Anyway, there’s some fascinating thought process there we talk about a lot internally.

Richard: Interesting. Yeah, I tend to call it a digital employee. You’ve got digital employees and you got human employees and you mix them up. You’ve got some tasks like filling in, sell on a spreadsheet to take a primitive one, digital employee for sure. No human needs to do that. But coming up with what’s needed on that spreadsheet, probably a human.

But that human might also have digital employees to help him do that.

Noah: Absolutely, yeah.

Richard: To make him faster. So the idea is not to obsolete humans, it’s to make them, well, first of all, enjoy their jobs more.

Noah: I think that’s exactly the, I think that’s the key crux of it is we often talk internally and I think that’s exactly the perspective that I find exciting. It’s what are the things that you find to be drudgery, to be boring, to be, to make your eyes glaze over that you really don’t want to do? Are any of those repetitious?

Those are the areas that we like to start and I think the things you don’t like to do is a great way to think about stuff to identify. Not the things you love doing. Don’t give away drawing if you love drawing. Give away, boring finance stuff if you don’t love finance.

Six Fingers, Leonardo, and a Painting in the Smithsonian

Richard: Right, exactly. Right. I’m not an artist. So I use AI tools like Leonardo is, oh my God, it’s a fascinating artistic tool. But it’s non, what’s the word you use? Non-deterministic.

Noah: Yeah, exactly. You get different results each time.

Richard: Oh, that was so good.

Noah: It got worse. What happened? Yes.

Richard: Wait, they have five fingers or six fingers now, it’s not creating an alien. But then again, my dad was an artist and one of his pictures, which I’m told is in the basement of the Smithsonian, was Winston Churchill. And if you look at it, he has six fingers.

Noah: Oh, really?

Richard: This was back in the 60s.

Noah: Was your father on something hallucinogenic at the time, or was he just a little creative in his finger counting?

Richard: He just did it wrong. No explanation. And he never acknowledged it, but we could all see it.

Noah: I was like, so the answer is your father was an AI who traveled back in time, Winston Churchill’s time. There’s going to be a great book in there somewhere, I’m sure.

Richard: But the weird mistakes like that aren’t limited to AI.

Noah: Very true. Very, very true.

Colossus, the Forbin Project

Richard: Subject changed slightly. There’s a lot of movies about AI, and some of them are scary. Terminator, of course, comes to mind. There’s a really good one that predates it called Colossus, the Forbin Project. Have you ever seen that? Yes, Yeah, I’m sure most of our readers have never even heard of it.

Noah: Is that 60s, 70s? I feel like that’s Colossus, like it’s a giant computer, right? It’s like a room size computer is the room size.

Richard: They carve out the under, they carve out the whole Rocky Mountains to put it in there. And then you see tape drives and reel to reels and punch cards and, back computer.

Noah: I don’t recall the plot of that movie. Is it like war games? Like I don’t remember actually what happens in the film. I do remember that visual of like, whoa.

Richard: The US creates a supercomputer that’s to control its entire military. And then it finds another one in Russia and they link up and then it says, basically, I’m in control now. And it shows that it’s going to control by dropping a nuke on somebody. And then it is in control. It really needed a sequel, but it was, the thing that’s really cool about it is they’re showing these super primitive 1970s style computers With force fields of keeping them safe. It’s like.

Noah: Wait. That is not a technology that exists. That is, that is not. Well, that is the writ of Hollywood and the land of fiction. Exactly. Narrative.

Richard: It’s super dated. It’s super dated. But it’s a fun movie to watch with the look at what did they really think it was going to be like?

Noah: Yeah.

Tame the Tech Beast

Richard: Well, we’re getting close to the time. And if there’s anything you want to say as a closing?

Noah: Sure, yeah. Tame the Tech Beast. We talked about books a little bit earlier. One of the reasons why I’m doing podcasts and having conversations like these is that my business partner and I finally finished our first book, not our 120th or 30th or 40th, but our first book, Tame the Tech Beast.

It is a kind of very accessible tome, relatively small, a couple 100 pages, really meant for sort of executives or business leaders who are kind of trying to figure out or struggling a little bit with where and how to conceptualize and engage with technology, who, one of our reviewers, Cindy Gallop, a friend of the companies, made this comment that she was like, I wish I’d had this book 20 years ago when I kept making so many decisions that now I look back on and I’m like, I would have done that differently.

And I think a really big part of this book is for people who don’t have an IT or a tech background who are executives or EDs or business leaders and are trying to sort of get their heads around what’s a thoughtful way to engage with technology in a way that doesn’t leave me either blowing huge amounts of money or failing to spend money because I’m paralyzed by the sort of like the incredible range of options, all of which seem to disagree with each other.

So it’s a real tactical methodology that kind of walks you through a process. It’s also very people-centric. I think one of the things that’s big about our organization is that we really think the people who know best in an organization about how this tool and these things should all interact are usually the people that have come up with their own creative workarounds already to do their version of that.

So I think I’d like to talk, and we talk about slot and book, of like, hey, if you’re talking to somebody about optimizing an onboarding process for a startup that is about to go through rapid growth, and really wants to streamline how quickly they can hire a person and ship them a computer from Apple or Lenovo and have them turn on the computer and have it automatically have their name on the screen and log in and have all their stuff get downloaded and all the security stuff.

Like all that stuff is possible now, but. It’s very easy and problematic if the IT department goes off and makes those decisions and doesn’t have the sort of HR or PE, people experience group, sort of like intrinsically connected to that whole thought process. So one of the things we talk a lot about is like who are the stakeholders in this organization who are actually like doing the workarounds now?

What pieces of paper and spreadsheets and paper clips and shims have they come up with to make all this stuff possible for them to get their job done now? Like those are the people you have to talk to make sure that the new thing you’re building actually solves the problem that they’re really having, not the one you imagine they’re having.

Richard: That’s important. I don’t know how many times I’ve worked on projects that were imaginary problems. Well, been a fascinating conversation. How can people get hold of you?

Where to Find Noah

Noah: The simplest ways are my Macktez website, macktez.com. There’s a link on that page to the events. So if anyone is in New York City and finds themselves around and interested in a super interesting in-person event every other month, TEDA Tech is the event series and it’s under the events page. There’s also a contact form there if you’re interested.

We are always excited to talk to people about potential projects and there’s a kind of respective client conversation, if that’s anything that raises people’s curiosity. There’s also a page on the website to buy the book if you are interested. We did finish the audio recording just a couple of weeks ago and it is now finally up.

I have to say, listening to yourself on audiobook was a little bit agonizing. It was much easier to listen to my business partner speak than myself. It’s such a challenge. And then also I have a personal website, NoahLandau.com, where I have some essays and And I talk more about Union docs and the Victorian web. And I also have this side fascination because of my architecture background with Vitso shelving.

So just last week, I started a little Tumblr blog where I drop a tip or trick for some clever thing you can do with Vitso shelving if you happen to be somebody into this Dieter RAM 606 furniture system from the 60s. That’s just a super architecture geekery. So anyway, check out that website if you’re interested in any of those things.

Richard: Thank you for coming on the podcast and appreciate it. So hang on before we finish and we’ll talk some more.

Noah: Awesome. Fantastic.

Quotable moments