Grief, Signs, and Giving Yourself Permission to Feel

Catherine Napoli Bruce joins Richard Lowe (The Writing King) on Leaders and Their Stories for a tender conversation between two widowers about grief, signs, and permission to feel.

After losing her husband to glioblastoma, Catherine spent five years writing a book about the conversations and signs that followed. As a hypnotherapist, she now helps others through grief, with one core message: your emotions are yours alone.

Catherine Napoli Bruce is the author of Conversations With My Dead Husband and a hypnotherapist and neuro-linguistic programming practitioner whose work, Dissolving Grief and Inner Resilience, helps people move through loss.

For more conversations like this one, see the Leaders Hub. Richard helps people turn hard, personal stories into books through memoir ghostwriting.

DISCUSS YOUR BOOK

Full transcript of the interview follows.

Richard Lowe: Hello, this is Richard Lowe. I’m the writing king and ghostwriting guru. And I’m here on the leaders in their stories podcast. I’m here with Catherine Bruce, who’s going to talk about her new book and hypnotherapy and all kinds of cool stuff like that. So Catherine, take it away.

Five Years in the Making

Catherine Napoli Bruce: Hi Richard, thank you for having me. And I know that’s one of the first things they tell you not to say is thank you for having me, but thanks anyway. So I just completed my book. It was five years in the making and I’ll get a little bit into it as to why it took so long to do. The initial writing of the book was pretty quick. It’s called Conversations with My Dead Husband.

Losing Her Husband, and the Conversations After

Catherine: And five years ago, almost five years ago, my husband passed away rather quickly from acleoblastoma. So the book is about how we met, how we created this life where with joy, with gratitude, I built up the resilience to be able to get through that time. And then the conversations that he and I had, are they real or are they imagined?

I don’t know. after he passed away, the conversations we had after he passed away, when I would go on long walks and scream, curse, cry, that’s the usual, that’s the usual MO for having lost someone so close to you. And I would ask all kinds of questions. Everything from where did you put the blank?

Richard: And I would. everything from where did you put the blank to how do I flip and use the remote control on the TV and surprisingly I would get these download inspirations. His famous joke was I’m not teaching you how to use the remote. It’s a very complicated system.

He built computers, he built the sound system, he built the whole entertainment system and he would say to me I’m not showing you how to use the remote.

Catherine: to how do I flip and use the remote control on the TV? And surprisingly, I would get these download inspirations. His famous joke was, I’m not teaching you how to use the remote. It’s a very complicated system. He built computers, he built a sound system, he built the whole entertainment system.

And he would say to me, I’m not showing you how to use the remote because then you won’t need me anymore.

The Questions Grief Asks

Catherine: So I needed to learn how to use the remote. There were a lot of things to turn off and on. And even more intense questions. Where are you? Will I see you again? Why can’t God turn back time? God can do anything. Why can’t God turn back time so we can catch this and know to have more years together?

So it’s the conversations that I’ve had, the… magical things that happen. have a light over my desk. This used to be his office. I have a light over my desk that just turns on sometimes. And there’s the whole story in the book about that. And the goal of the book is not to let you have you believe that there’s life after death or we go someplace or anything else. The goal of the book is to say to people,

Trusting the Signs You Notice

Catherine: If you’ve lost a loved one, if you’ve lost a pet and you think you catch it out of the corner of your eye, you think you hear the voice of your loved one and then you dismiss it because people will say you’re crazy or that’s not true. That’s on them.

That’s not on you. And one of the most comforting things as a widow going through this journey and for many widows that I know is the idea that there is some piece of them, some piece of the person that passed away that’s still right there with you.

Two Widowers Compare Notes

Richard: I know what you mean. My late wife, I’m a widower also. My late wife passed away about 18 years ago and it was a long illness, eight years long. Very, very harsh one. It happens. I’ve had a lot of therapy on it and went through the same thing. I would go to the barboretum, just talk to her and it seemed to help.

Catherine: Yeah. Okay. I’m so sorry.

Richard: I don’t know whether I was talking to her, was talking to a figment of my imagination, or I was talking to a butterfly, a lot of butterflies there. But I understand, and first, know, I must be bonkers because I’m talking to somebody who’s not there. They’re there in one form or another.

There’s, at least they’re there in my mind. And could be a projection, it could be something. I mean, it was very interesting.

Catherine: Right.

Richard: I didn’t have any of the issues you had where like, where’s the how to do the remote and stuff. Mine was more of a of like, why the hell did you do this kind of thing, you know, anger, depression, you know, the whole the whole comment of emotions. Until finally, I came to terms with it. And then I didn’t need to talk to her anymore.

Permission to Feel

Catherine: Right. And in coming to terms with it, it makes it a lot harder If you’re forcing yourself to fall in line, saying to yourself, I really need to be quiet about this, or I can’t express this emotion, and then you just push down, push down, push down. That works against the healing process.

Richard: in line and it’s just your imagination or you’re saying to yourself, well I really need to be quiet about this or I can’t express this emotion. This can’t be happening to me and then you just push down, push down, push down. Well, I’m a guy and guys, obviously, and guys don’t show emotions.

My dad used to beat me every time I cried because, know, I’ll give you a reason to cry, son. And I literally get a lead pipe or a stick against me. So I learned not to cry. In fact, at the funeral, I gave a speech. didn’t cry a bit.

Not a single tear. But then when my cat passed away two weeks later, Oh, that was the last straw. It just.

Catherine: Right. Exactly.

Richard: I just lost it in the middle of a business meeting. The vet calls me and I was out. mean, everybody’s like, what’s going on? I’m like, I’m going home, but you’re in. Oh, and then I looked at my face, but you’re in. Oh, gotcha. And, and, uh, yeah, I shove all my emotions right here and the heart is probably not a good place to shove them.

Put Your Own Oxygen Mask on First

Catherine: Exactly. we compartmentalize in order to deal with things. And we often, If it’s someone who’s close to us, a parent, a child, a spouse, we feel like we have to compartmentalize even more, because we’re comforting everybody else. And comforting everybody else.

Richard: Yeah.

Catherine: is not entirely great for us. Allowing other people to comfort us is really good. It’s a good healthy thing. We’re taught not to show emotion. I too got the, as a female, don’t cry, I’ll give you a reason to cry. When my father died, it was, don’t cry, this is all about your mother. I’m 11.

Richard: I too. Yep, so you know the drill. Right. I’ve heard that too. I got that too. This isn’t about you son. This is about XYZ.

Catherine: I’m 11. Yeah. So. Exactly. So we need to make it a little bit about ourselves. We always need to put our own oxygen mask on first, as our wonderful flight attendants remind us every time we get on the plane. And when you think that statement through, you really begin to see how important self care is.

The automatic reaction is no, no, if I have a child, I have to put the oxygen mask on them first. No. they can wait half a second if while you’re putting it on them they freak out and panic then neither one of you has a mask on.

Richard: in. What does the stewardess say you put the mic extension mask on yourself first then everybody else and that’s so that you’re not helping anybody if you pass out

The Book’s Hope: Stop Listening to Everyone Else

Catherine: Yes. Exactly, exactly. So the book hope, my again, my hope with the book is to inspire to allow people to say, you know what, I’m not listening to everyone around me. I’m not going to heed their words of how I should behave in this situation. And if our upbringing had us not cry or if we just didn’t feel like crying at the moment, numb is pretty much the only emotion many of us feel when something of that magnitude happens. We shouldn’t beat ourselves up afterwards.

Richard: My grandfather passed away in 1978 and my parents drove us all the way to Texas. He didn’t die just then. Came back and then my dad went and he passed away. Came back. I felt no emotion. I didn’t show any emotion. My dad was very upset and got a few hits.

it’s like even at that age, which was in my teens, like dad, you’re giving me mixed messages here. Emotion or not. mean, you know, your, your grandfather died. barely knew him and you didn’t even let me, you didn’t even bring me out because it would be too frightening for the kids.

It’s like, so didn’t get to see him and would I cry? I didn’t know him. He was a stranger.

Catherine: Right? Right.

Richard: And you told me not to cry. Ever.

Catherine: Our parents do, the people around us do the best we can with what we have. And you know, that’s all we can ask of them. And now it’s up to us to say, how do I want to feel? The book is the product of the work I did before he passed away. and the work I did on myself with the help of so many others after.

Writing It Down, Over Five Years

Catherine: And I said, it took five years. didn’t take that long to write. The first really rough draft of the book came about just all on a piece of paper. at that time, my minister, and she had lost her husband two years prior. I guess she’s still my minister.

She just doesn’t run a church anymore. Her husband had passed away two years prior almost to the day of my husband’s passing and the two men were friends. So it was interesting watching that turn of events and Reverend Michelle Said be sure to jot down Every appearance if somebody tells you that he did something if somebody if you experience something write it down, write it down, write it down, and I did.

And that’s a big part of the book is that you experience these things. Again, whether you’ve created them, whether you’re adding more meaning to something that, you know, lights going on in my office, doesn’t matter. Does the thought that it is this person give you comfort? Yes.

When the Edits Broke Her Open

Catherine: So after writing the book and sending it to an editor. who edited most of it, sent it back to me. I went and sat down and went through the edits, and I got past page two and I was just this ball of jello crying. And this happened constantly, and this happened for a couple of years.

And as a hypnotherapist, as somebody who works with neurolinguistic programming, with my clients, you think I would say to myself, Catherine, maybe you should do some self hypnosis. No, thought never occurred to me because as big as the emotions are, they’re comforting in a way. And so I am part of a mastermind and my mentor just said, well, why don’t we do hypnosis around it?

Okay. That makes all the sense in the world now that you said it out loud. I did the work. We did a session and at the end of our session, I pulled it up on my computer and read through it and was able to make changes and start the process all over again.

So there’s more to writing a book, I guess, and you’re the book writer, not me. There is more to writing a book than just

Getting Over the Emotional Hump

Catherine: the writing of the book, there’s everything that goes around with it. And sometimes you have to think unconventionally about how do I get over this hump? I can imagine, how do I get over this?

Richard: from convention. Yes, it can be well sometimes I run into books that projects that are very emotional for the client one of them Her parents sold her into you know, what kind of slavery When she was 14 years old and she spent 15 20 years in that and then finally she ran into a Christian guy who got her out They got married and had kids. She’s doing really well. She just wanted to write a book about that

Catherine: Wow.

Richard: We couldn’t get through it. Finally, I said, look, I’m not your therapist. I’m a ghostwriter. And much as I’d like to finish this with you, think, and she said, yeah, we need to stop. And that’s, that’s where it was. We couldn’t go anymore because it was just too emotional and she didn’t have a way to turn it off. And I didn’t want to leave her like crying, volunteers after every session. That’s not my job.

Catherine: Right. Right. No, it’s not. That’s my job. no. And so hypnotherapy, neurolinguistic programming, it’s all the things that your unconscious mind hears and programs whenever it programmed them and then reacts that way. So I don’t know for sure that If I had done self hypnosis, it would have worked, but somebody else doing it for me definitely worked.

Just what is the emotion around this? And can you pull something out of it that will make it positive? Just turning off the reaction to the emotion and not burying it the way, you know, your father, my brother, who pretty much raised me as a father figure after my dad.

passed away saying, you don’t cry. I’ll give you a reason. You know, I’ll give you a reason to cry. That’s not what we want to do with the emotion. We want to show our brains that it’s okay to react in a more positive way. This thing happened. Absolutely.

This thing hurts hurts. Absolutely. And we have the ability to react in a way that is kinder to ourselves. and works better for our lives.

Richard: We can change our reactions to things or, or at least our, I mean, we might have the reaction, but we can back up from that. You know, be in a bad situation and then just maybe talk to somebody, talk, see your pastor. mean, whatever, whatever turns you on, go do it.

Uh, and, uh, to get out of it. Um, well, not whatever turns you on, whatever helps you through it. Um, yeah.

Catherine: Yes. Yes. Exactly.

On Writing, Editors, and Finishing

Richard: Yeah. So you’ve written a book and you’re a hypnotherapist and neurodiversity, neuro-linguistic programming person. And, um, that’s very good. I’m glad to see you’ve written a book. know how hard it is. me. I’ve written well over a hundred and 11 years. And I’m working on my own book right now, which is the ghost writing advantage.

It’s all about how to put from the client side about ghost writing. I haven’t found any of those. So I said, ah, they’re right.

Catherine: neuro-linguistic programming.

Richard: And, and I thought it was going to be 30,000 words. I’m up to 60 and I’m finishing it on a Sunday. So I have a time limit. So I worked all day and not today, except for these podcasts. And, um, it’s, it’s interesting because I’m kind of going back through the various emotional things that have ghost writing can be very emotional and going through all of that again, and taking a look at it again.

And what could I have done better? You know, when I was first starting out and stuff from that to now.

Catherine: That’s amazing.

Richard: certainly have improved a lot. you know how hard it is to write a book and you did it on your own. You didn’t have any real help as in the editor.

Catherine: No, no, not.

Richard: And editors is essential, by the way. found editors are just, they’re very cool. It’s not something that I do. I’m a ghostwriter, not an editor. They’re different. I didn’t know what an editor did because I thought editing, proofreading. Exactly. You need a proofreader too. Proofreader. Well, you can find an editor who does everything and edit, know, proofreading, grammar checking.

Catherine: Right. And I didn’t, I didn’t know what an editor did because I thought editing, proofreading. Nope. You need a proofreader too. There’s a lot of moving parts.

Richard: line editing, content editing, all kinds of editing. The one I have does it all. And she’ll go through the whole book and it takes her a while, but it comes out better. And that’s, and they’re not, they don’t cost very much in comparison to a ghostwriter. They don’t cost much at all. That’s very interesting. Well, do you have any final words for our listeners?

Your Emotions Are Yours Alone

Catherine: Wow. No. Your emotions are important. Your emotions are yours and yours alone. Don’t let anyone tell you how to feel about anything. And when the reaction of your emotions get in the way, never your emotions, when the reaction of your emotions get in the way, that’s when you wanna maybe talk to someone, a therapist, a hypnotherapist.

There’s so many people out there that can help you heal the reaction of the emotions. Don’t ever let anyone tell you how to feel about anything.

Where to Find Catherine

Richard: Right, but you can control your reactions. You can control the way you act. And that’s kind of the important thing, I think. Well, very good. How can people reach you?

Catherine: Yes. Exactly. The website for the book is www.conversationswithmydeadhusband.com. They can also reach me through my hypnosis dissolving grief and inner resilience. Both of those websites are, one is more about the hypnosis, one is more about the specific grief recovery work that I do.

Richard: with my dead. Okay. Okay. And on LinkedIn, of course.

Catherine: And on LinkedIn, course, Katherine Napoli, N-A-P-O-L-I, Bruce, spelled like the name, spelled like Springsteen, I like to say.

Richard: I’m Richard Lowe, this has been the Leaders in Their Stories podcast. I’m the writing king and ghost writing guru, and you can reach me at thewritingking.com or ghostwriting.guru. And I hope you all have a great day and I hope this was enjoyable to you. Thank you very much.

Catherine: Thank you. Bye.

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