Arie Brish – author of the best selling business book “Lay an Egg and Make Chicken Soup”
Arie Brish’s popular best seller business book “Lay an Egg and Make Chicken Soup” can be summarized by one simple statement: INNOVATION = IDEA X EXECUTION.
It has been immensely prevalent with young entrepreneurs and investors thus has been ranked among the uppermost in multiple business categories since 2018, including several #1 placements.
The book is a practical guide for all the moving parts and potential blind spots in commercializing new products, new services, or new business. It is industry agnostic, and covers new ventures, innovation process in large companies, or refreshing existing small business.
You can find out more at: https://www.cxo360.net
The Conversations with Influencers podcast has been brought to you by Richard Lowe of The Writing King. Richard is a ghostwriter, writing coach and LinkedIn Profile optimizer.
Interview transcript Arie Brish
Richard Lowe 00:03
I’m here with Ari British, who has written a popular best selling book called land egg and make chicken soup. And that can be summarized by one simple statement innovation equals idea times execution. His book has been immensely prevalent with young entrepreneurs and investors, and has thus been ranked among the upper most and multiple business categories since 2018, including several number one placements. It’s a practical guide for all the moving parts and potential blind spots and commercializing new products, new services or new businesses. It’s industry agnostic and covers new adventures, innovation process and large companies and refreshing small businesses. Welcome to the show are, Ari, how you doing?
Arie Brish 00:46
Good. Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Richard Lowe 00:49
Good. So tell me about your book.
Arie Brish 00:52
So it’s going back maybe 20 or 30 years in my in my career where I started my career as a design engineer, and like most engineers, tend to think that more feature rich your product is, the better it will sell. And it will, it will be so feature rich, so that will sell itself and doesn’t need anything else. But as you progress and get exposed to real life, you know that actually, the product itself is a small component in the overall success, recipe or equation. And you need to execute on all the elements in the recipe. Otherwise, the whole domino will collapse on you. In recent years, I was also mentoring many entrepreneurs and realize this issue of a pitch with everybody almost had brilliant ideas, but in most cases, don’t have enough experience to anticipate all the execution details and challenges we’re facing. Right?
Richard Lowe 02:10
I understand. So how did you solve that?
Arie Brish 02:15
So I started to write notes. After every meeting I had with mentors, I started to write notes. You know, I didn’t ignore this so that some of the notes were important enough to blog on LinkedIn. So I started to blog some of these notes on LinkedIn. And, you know, a couple of years later, I found that I have enough material, I found two things. One is that this issue repeats itself with many innovators. They tend to think that the great idea is 80% of what you need to succeed. The other thing I found out that I have with all the blogs and notes and what have you, I have enough material to put it together into a book. So I started to glue all the notes into something that only months later, I realized that it kind of becoming a book. I worked on it for several months before before I realize that it’s going to be a book.
Richard Lowe 03:23
Okay, got that. But the process of making a book is quite fascinating. Of course, I’m a ghostwriter. So I’ve been through it many times. How did you find it?
Arie Brish 03:31
Yeah, so many people. When they liked the book, they kind of decided they’re going to buy the book. In my case, it kind of happened. You know, even my family didn’t know, I’m going to publish a book until like, two or three months before I push the publish button. Because it was kind of a process. And it was very interesting for me because I the way the book is structured, I structure it as a checklist in the innovation process. So there is and by the way, people can download the checklist from my website. It has like 20 or 30 different checkpoints or check items that you need to go through and test yourself. If you looked into this looked into that, in many cases, some of these check items may be irrelevant for your business, but at least you go through the list and you find those top challenging ones that you really need to address and think about more in depth. So I started to structure the book as a checklist and then each chapter is one of these check items. But it starts a chapter with A definition or description of the topic, like maybe two or three pages of just a brief description of what the topic is. And then two or three examples, real life examples of success stories or lesson learns from mistakes made by other people. That relates to this topic. So, which chapter is, is one of these, one about finance and one about fundraising and one about logistics and one about intellectual property and blah, blah, blah, very quickly, you get to 20 or 30 items like this. And I try to make it industry agnostic. Again, by designs, because you can always learn from different verticals are different industries. You may have a customer service, let’s say, airline airline, facing some customer service crisis, and you never had this before. But you look sideways, you may find out that I don’t know why a hotel or hospital had the similar crisis 10 years ago, and how did they solve it? And what worked for them and what have you, so you can learn? Generic lesson learns across industries? That could be very,
Richard Lowe 06:35
very, I’m sorry, it’s still there. Yep, yep. Okay. I understand. Yeah. I’ve worked for several companies. And innovation was always an interesting topic, because on one hand, the companies wanted innovation. But on the other hand, they kind of discouraged it, because it didn’t involve the employees in the, in the benefits of the innovation. So you have a great idea. And then the company just takes it over. And that’s that. Yeah. How do you how do you fight that kind of thing?
Arie Brish 07:06
Yeah, that’s an excellent point. The other diversity in the structure of the book, I eyes innovation, challenges, both in small business startup, as well as large corporations, and in many cases, large corporations are slower to innovate. Because the two main issues that innovation regarding innovation in large companies, one is the fear of cannibalism, in many cases, the new product idea very likely to cannibalize this some older product, and there is always the politics of management, opposing this new idea just because it’s going to cannibalize my my bread and butter businesses today. So this is what one thing that I learned working in corporate world for 25 years. The other obstacle is, if the innovation is if the new idea is to innovative, some time the company has how time well, to place it in the organization. Let’s say you a restaurant chain, and somebody comes up with a new idea for a new drink. You don’t always know you can create a, you know, drink division that is totally outside of you. But that requires a major.
Richard Lowe 08:51
Yeah, I know what you mean.
Arie Brish 08:53
Beverage division, side by side you, restaurant, or you can add the drink as a menu item in your restaurant. So the organizational issues how to tackle the new product idea.
Richard Lowe 09:08
Yeah, what I used to run into a lot was the what I used to call the Just do your job phenomenon. So yeah, come up with this great idea. Go to your boss, and the boss says, Why are you working on that? And that I mean, that’s probably the lowest level of innovation or discouraging innovation is it has to be encouraged in the business.
Arie Brish 09:28
Yes. So the book and one of my early reviewers notice it I didn’t even do it on purpose intentionally, initially. Almost every chapter talks about human factors in whatever the chapter covers. And what you just mentioned is definitely one of the issues in lab in large companies where you have a job to do while you’re working on this. This thing.
Richard Lowe 09:56
We’ve always done it this way, or this way isn’t working for us. Where? Why are you trying to change things? Or it’s not broken? Why fix it? Yeah. All that standard garbage that people spout. Yeah,
Arie Brish 10:09
exactly. So one of the early chapters, talks about why innovate. When you look in different large companies that were like, you know, living forever, you know, just most recently Sears as an example. If you don’t innovate, eventually you fall behind and totally collapse, of course, and the companies that survived for so many years, the ones that did well, in innovation, if you take IBM, you look at IBM had a look at IBM today, it’s a totally different company, because they they manage the innovation pretty well for themselves, independently of technology, just by the company culture of allowing new business units to emerge every few years tackle something totally new that is not in the current portfolio.
Richard Lowe 11:11
Yep. Yeah, one of the struggles that I had at the company I used to work out was, we had a lot of programmers and people who theoretically didn’t even really need to be in the office much. And I was trying to get people to work remotely, because I figured it would eliminate the commute eliminate stress. And there was it couldn’t we never got it in I mean, obviously, probably during the pandemic, they started doing it, but but could never make any headway on that. Because they have this model in their head of, nope, they have to come into the office, but they have a two hour commute. Well, that’s their problem. And, and there was this not realization, that that little bit of innovation, of allowing people to work remotely, would increase their productivity dramatically. They were also worried about things like, you know, being at home and not being supervised and blah, blah, blah. But those are all solvable problems. Yeah, lots, lots and lots of trouble with innovation. Because people have fixed mindsets.
Arie Brish 12:16
Yeah, the supervision or lack of supervision is one of the issues that we had in the past 2030 years ago, when businesses started to allow remote working from home. We, when I worked at Motorola, Motorola, I was one of the leaders allowing people to work from home, it started with some young mothers that says, I want to stay with my baby, but I can still work from home, let me do that. And management at some point, allow that. So instead of staying at home with a baby for one year, they came back to work almost immediately, but they work from home. The other motivation was satellite experts that live far away instead of investing in their location or whatever, they had some personal reasons to live in, you know, place x where the company offices place why. So the company had a dilemma out there, let them go let them work remotely. And in many cases, they let them work remotely. And it proved to work with you well,
Richard Lowe 13:39
Oh, yeah. Yeah, it can work very well. And another problem we ran into a lot was the problem of degrees. You know, MBAs and things like that. I never felt having a degree was was very important when finding an employee, except for the obvious exception of have, like a PhD in math for an AI person or something. For highly specialized technical things, but for regular jobs, trade school would be fine or something like that, with the bosses disagree, they wanted, they wanted that bachelor’s degree always if there was any choice, so I had to look for DBAs with a bachelor’s degree instead of a DBA, who was the best for the fit. Innovation wise it? I found one of the reasons why I was going after people who didn’t necessarily have degrees as I found people who have degrees. No offense intended to people who do have degrees, because they tend to be in the fixed mindset from the school. They have an educational mindset, which is very different from a corporate mindset. And by mixing in a few people with degrees and a few people without degrees, I managed to get a much bigger and more robust set of skills and ideas than by just having everybody have a college degree. because that forces everybody into a mold.
Arie Brish 15:02
Yeah, yeah, excellent point you touched on, it touched on something even bigger. Today they call it diversity. When you have, you know, back in the 1980s, the initiative of diversity started as a social initiative to kind of give everybody a fair chance. But 2030 years later, now, the research that shows that diverse teams did. Surprisingly, most of the results said the worst thing did 50% to 70%, better than homogeneous things. And there are several studies that show that the diversity here in this country, diversity started as a racial and gender thing. But when you come to the diversity of thinking and a team, like you said, you know, mix different education backgrounds, it’s one angle of diversity, mix people from different countries, obviously, ethnicity and gender is another element of diversity. Age is another diversity, I had an interview just a few days ago, about just about age diversity, we talked about it for for the whole hour. When I became a marketing manager, after being many years in engineering, I was new to marketing. So I hired the most experienced marketing people I could find in the company, and some of them were 2020 years older than me. On the other hand, I found it very productive to have young interns alongside of the experience team, because young interns usually don’t have a box that limits the thinking of license. So they come up with all kinds of crazy ideas that some of these crazy ideas turn out to be good at is, of course, of course. So you have a mix of very experienced and very fresh eyes looking at the same problem. And working now with a startup company that you see we are in three different countries speaking about working remotely, we have people, multiple locations in Europe, people in multiple locations in the US, and the age, ages of the team, and it’s pretty small team about 10 people. The youngest is 22. I think the oldest is in the late 60s. And we work very well together as a team.
Richard Lowe 17:54
Yeah, speaking of diversity, I’ve always hired diverse teams, because it didn’t seem it didn’t even occur to me not to. Yeah, I mean, this person comes to me there, we’ve got the skills and the education in the background. That’s fine. I’m, who cares about all these other things. And I’ve also found that having diverse teams is very good for innovation. An example is, I forget the name of the company, I think it was Amazon or something, they put out a a new AI thing that worked with their HR group to make hiring recommendations, then it was based on 10 years of, of history. And it turned out of course, over those 10 years it hired mostly men, so it was very biased towards men. Of course, Amazon pulled that I think it was Amazon pulled out from from us immediately as soon as they figured it out. But if they’d had a couple of women on the team, I betcha that wouldn’t have happened. And there’s countless examples of this kind of thing happening in AI. I’ve written several books on AI for clients, that they’re biased. And if you’d had the right diversity, diversity, diverse staff, you wouldn’t you would have caught those biases before they hit the public.
Arie Brish 19:09
People tend to gravitate to people like themselves, that’s a natural human thing to do. So you need to step out of your comfort zone when you hire new people. Somebody has two people at exactly the same scale everything being equal, but one from different countries one have a different gender or whatever the diverse element is. I will take any day that one that is a little different because they will bring some different way of thinking to the theme.
Richard Lowe 19:46
Yeah, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s very interesting. Having diverse teams. I know there’s a big discussion about it now and a lot of people see it as a threat or a lot of people see it as other things. And I’ve always seen it as just perfectly Natural why why wouldn’t you have a diversity? Why wouldn’t you consider that person from Cuba or the person from Russia or, or that
Arie Brish 20:11
their job I started at Motorola weeks when I took it over was about 80 90%. white male in the team, to three years later, we had people from all over the country all over the world. So I had a big map in the office where little flags and where the different engineers came, what country is different. And I think we ended up about 50 on the gender level. So part of it was, you know, in the past, you went to engineering school, those 90%. Males, when I went to engineering school, we were about 50 people, only one girl, right? Guys, one girl, so obviously, you can’t have a 5050 back then have gender balance. But today, you find when you go to, you know, graduations of engineering school or business schools you find pretty, I think, given listen to this show that females graduation is about 60% versus guys is 40%.
Richard Lowe 21:23
Yeah, yeah. And I enjoy working with all the different groups, regardless of their background, I don’t care. I’ve never cared. It just simply is irrelevant. And I’m fascinated by other cultures and other ways people think anyway, you know, talk to an African American about their background or an Indian person, about their background. And it’s different than mine. And I’m fascinated, like, Well, why do you think that way, you know? And when we’re having when we’re doing innovation, things where we’re getting together and kind of brainstorm, having those other cultures and other backgrounds, of whatever kind is invaluable? I think, just because those different points of view have different ways to innovate different thoughts, different processes different. They’ve been brought up differently. If everybody’s the same, regardless of who they are. They’re, you’re not going to get that diversity of thought.
Arie Brish 22:21
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We had another case. Kind of funny, almost. What two executives a Motorola never agreed on anything. And they’re all from two countries. One was French. And the other one was Brazilians, I think or something. So, you know, a few years later, the French guy was promoted. He called up the Brazilian guy and said, I want you to come and work for me. And the guy asked him, How come we never agree on anything? And he said, That’s exactly why I want you to come and work for me. So we debate issues. And I’m not looking for yes, people. I’m looking for people that will tell me what well, am I wrong? And they work good together as a team.
Richard Lowe 23:13
Exactly. Exactly. I mean, I don’t want people who are, who are obstructionist, or who are argumentative all the time, but I definitely want differences of opinion. And I want somebody who’s willing to stand up and say, This is my opinion. And it’s different than yours. But so why let’s talk about it.
Arie Brish 23:31
Yes, exactly. Exactly.
Richard Lowe 23:33
Obviously, you don’t want people though, who disrupt the team, you want people who work with a team. But that’s just a matter of understanding how management works. Supervision.
Arie Brish 23:45
So we started talking about it, as I said, almost every chapter in the book, some human aspect to it, right, that’s good. That’s good. So the diversity is one element, when I talked about organizations and what have you, there is a whole chapter about just HR, how do you manage people in innovative organization, how do you encourage innovation in an organization, you know, like the issues we we talked about what how to overcome it from a management point of view, but also when you when you launch a new product? How do you manage sales people different different, different challenges and reward systems that you need to think when you launch new products versus a sell person that selling existing product? Almost everything, every every discipline? Every topic you think about there is a human element that you need to think about? In many cases, businesses or ventures don’t don’t pay attention.
Richard Lowe 24:51
Of course, of course. And then there’s also the the concept of pushing people, I guess you’d call them stretch goals or pushing them beyond that. They’re out of their box. Obviously, innovation has a lot to do with that. managers get pushed out of their box all the time, if they really truly innovative, like, oh, that doesn’t seem right. And they don’t want to do it. How do you address in the book people who, who are unwilling to get out of their box? And innovate, because innovation is getting out of the box? Really?
Arie Brish 25:24
Right? Right. So I talked about this topic as well. One is just training, you need to train people and then couch. So one element is training, training people to think out of the box. And I think I quoted one or two training consultants that, you know, come for a day and kind of push people out of their box and train them how to deal with it. So this is one the other one has to do with the reward system. You know, we work people from getting out of their comfort zone. After that, you know, they have a bonus for submitting new ideas. Even if your idea is not accepted. There’s a bonus for submitting an idea if it’s accepted, it’s even better for you financially. So that’s another another way. As far we talked about says PayPal or Salesforce before salespeople are motivated or motivated by commissions, right. So they naturally if the entire paycheck Pay Plan is commission based, they will gravitate to the selling products, more mature products, because they they, they spend less time selling a mature product, they just go to whatever customers once a month and take the monthly purchase order for next month. And that’s about it. So in five minutes, they do the monthly quota. But when when they have to promote a new product, it takes hours and hours and hours of educating customers why this new product is better for them. So they and then the customers naturally buy only small volumes initially. So for my commission based only salespeople don’t get rewarded. To sell new products. So you need different incentive plans for salespeople to you know, spend some time on promoting new products. And going back to my life in the corporate world, we had separate incentive plans to encourage those people to spend time on selling new products. So that was not commission base. That was my stone base. So if you, you know, bring a customer to a training class about this new product, you get a bonus, when you get the customer to buy the first sample of this new product, you get another bonus so they get financial incentives that are not commissioned, but more milestone based.
Richard Lowe 28:26
Yep, exactly. Now, of course, I’m looking through your book, one of the important things is you can’t just take every wild idea and turn them into something you have to consider the return on investment. So how does that work?
Arie Brish 28:40
So I took about that also. So the book kind of covers almost everything. Obviously, it doesn’t go very deep on any one subject, you know, every chapter in the book, have a whole book about it. Many books about it that go deep into one topic, I kind of go overview, hopefully every topic you need to think about so I talk about the process of finding funneling new ideas. You start the process with 10 or 20 new ideas and you sit down and with the whole team and people start to stones on these new ideas whether it’s has to do with the market is not big enough or you’re not sure if customer acceptance will be it will be too expensive to build the site. Okay, I can say I want to sell it for 20 bucks, but it will cost me 5000 bucks to build whatever the obstacles are. And you get from 20 Good ideas you get down to 10 or five and eventually you get to the top Three are top one, whatever your capacity is to implement whatever the innovation is, and you start to execute on this selected one or two or three that you selected to work on. So it has to do with the return on investment. And the discussion is, number one, what’s the return? Okay? How many customers will buy it? And how much are they willing to pay it? On the other side of the equation? How much will it cost me to build it? How much will it cost me to design this product, and in many cases, you know, the originator or the Yeah, sometime, doesn’t know all the hidden cost of implementing it. So that’s part of the process of, you know, analyzing all the costs that you require for the investment and then do all the market research. For for the revenue, the return on the investment, that brings another point, by the way, that I have a chapter about it as well, that’s a learning curve, every time you start with a new idea, or new poses, or new product or new service, it cost you more than, you know, six months into it, or two years into it. So you need to take into account the learning curve, the fact that it costs more. And that’s part of the investment, you know, let’s say it’s a $10 product. But the first, how many 1000 products you build will cost you $200 To build this loss needs to be taken into account as an investment in a new product. If you know for sure that you get the cost down to $5. And now when you sell it for 10, or 15, you’re making good profit, but will take you you know, few 1000s of this to get to that point. So that something sometimes people ignore is the higher cost of the early, early prototypes, or even the prototypes early production normally has higher cost than you anticipate higher than you want. Even if you anticipate higher costs. Normally, it’s higher than what you anticipated.
Richard Lowe 32:30
Of course, and then you’ve got other other barriers such as resource availability, scalability, customers don’t want to change so forth.
Arie Brish 32:41
So yeah, the customer, you know, in some industries, the customers happy to adapt any new ideas in some industries, and I worked in multiple industries. So in a high tech industry, when you come up with a new gadget, you know, people will be very happy to test it the next day, when you give them a sample and some other industries like medical energy, the cost of failure is so enormous that the customers are very risk adverse. And just to get them to check sample could very long sales cycle just to check a sample in high tech is days in NLG, and medica. could be used?
Richard Lowe 33:33
Yep. Exactly. Scalability is important. And of course, also probably the difficulty of the of the of the idea, how difficult is it to implement? How much resources will it take? Yeah, yeah. And then do you even have the resources to even look at it, depending on where you’re at.
Arie Brish 33:56
Different industries have different cultures. So some time if the idea is to out of the box, in some industries, it will be it will work against you. Again, in high tech, if you come with the out of the box, something very innovative out of the box, people will love it. When you do it in utilities will scare people from even try that because you connect the new gadget to the electrical grid of a big city and something goes wrong, then the whole city will shut down because a bug in your new gadget, you know, took down the entire electrical grid of Chicago. That’s why you know, it takes a long time to launch a new product and audio utility.
Richard Lowe 34:51
Of course, of course yeah, there’s there’s the matter of fitting into the existing standards. Like standards can took a long time to develop.
Arie Brish 35:01
That’s another thing. Yeah, we had. So going back to another little real project I was working on that was in the air condition business. And took us two years to it wasn’t even a new standard, it was interpretation of the existing standard, to convince a standard committee that our interpretation was acceptable and in compliance with with the existing standard. So that also a delay in commerce, commercialization of the new product. So you have to look at the entire ecosystem. So I have another chapter about ecosystem, and to look at the entire ecosystem, and, you know, could be many, many, many elements in the ecosystem entities of stakeholders, whether it’s city government to start up the bodies, so obviously, customers, suppliers, sales channels, customer support, blah, blah, blah, there’s so many elements you need to think about. And in some industries, you know, there is fully 1015, ecosystem stakeholders that you need to satisfy before you can start selling the product, of
Richard Lowe 36:29
course, worse. So, yes, innovation is super important for businesses and individuals, I think. Because in this day of the pandemic, for individuals, people becoming unemployed, or whatever, they need to innovate their own lives, not just sit there collecting their unemployment check or whatever, didn’t go into their savings. They should be out, trying to figure out what to do and how to change. So innovation doesn’t just apply to businesses. I think it also applies to individuals.
Arie Brish 37:02
Absolutely. I had one to presentation by a psychologist is his same old theory was every three to five years, you need to make a major change in your life. Whether to move to a new house or change your job or buy a new car or something like that. That will keep you fresh. And energized.
Richard Lowe 37:28
Yeah. Yeah. Because otherwise you will especially now if you’re stuck in some, I need to work for a nine to five, but there are no nine to five that was you need to do something else.
Arie Brish 37:39
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And many businesses bounced back immediately, or not even bounced back well adapted or pivoted, that’s devoted. For the new situations. We have vodka distillery here in Austin, Texas that like weeks into the pandemic, change the production line to do hand sanitizers from the same basically what colors up. So you get to, you know, wash your hands with vodka, but that another customer, I have a client that did some engine lubricants. And again, they change your production line to do to do hand sanitizers. And it’s going very, very well. So you can adapt very quickly the those kinds of stories like this fod, like the best example followed, when when PPAs were in short demand for changes, some production lines to make PPS medical personnel and changing from automobiles to PPAs. Oh, go back to World War Two, changing from automobiles to build airplanes or tanks or whatever. Right.
Richard Lowe 39:08
Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So in there’s also with the heavy innovation, of course, you need to consider more than your current market. You could have other markets that are available to you. It might not fit to your current customer set, but it might fit to a different customer set that you can also send, sell to
Arie Brish 39:31
light like that there are two angles to think about innovation. One is take what you know how to build or take your technology and see if there are other market segments or other verticals that can use it in some different ways. For example, you know, changing from vodka to hand sanitizers, it’s more or less the same technology, but totally different application. So that’s one And vecto The direction you can do. The other one is look at your existing customers and see what additional services or what additional products. So basically capitalize on the fact that you have this good relationship with, you know all these customers and see what else can you do for them. So that usually, you know, brings up ideas for other products that you can do for the same for the same customers. Of
Richard Lowe 40:32
course, of course, all of that’s important. Okay. Well, this has been a fascinating conversation have any final words?
Arie Brish 40:44
Innovation is important, no matter as we said, no matter what industry you are. And by the way, another example, take two more minutes. People tend to think about innovation as a technology thing. It doesn’t have to be a technology for example, my favorite example is Domino’s Pizza went public about the same time as Google. Google is considered to be Wall Street, you know, darling, but Domino’s Pizza stock did two times better than Google. They went public they went IPO about the same within a few weeks from each other Domino’s Pizza did two times better than Google. And that innovation is in the customer service. Yeah, they use technology. You they were the first one you could order pizza through the internet. But they did not invent the internet. They did not invent any type of new pizza. The innovation was the customer service element. So innovation definitely doesn’t have to be technology.
Richard Lowe 41:47
Of course not. Of course not. It could be just about anything. Yeah. Yep. Okay. Well, thank you for appearing on my podcast. Hope you found it enjoyable. I hope our listeners found it useful. And, you know, I’m looking forward to hopefully you’ve got another book coming because this one was fascinating.
Arie Brish 42:06
Thanks for having me. And I enjoyed the conversation. Thank you so much. Thank you. Okay. Have a good day. Okay, you too. Bye bye.
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